|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Mar 14, 2017 22:13:49 GMT
Linde has encourage a threat with ideas for how port raids (as opposed to raids) could work. Port raids are that action you take when you really want to kill someones ships, even if they are in relative safety of a friendly port!
In EiA rules, first the port attacks, then the port raiders remaining ships gets to shoot at the defender ships, and at last the defender ships get to shoot at the attacker. If the attacker lost more ships than the defender, then the raid was unsuccesful. Otherwise raid was successful.
Suggestion 1: Gains/losses for victor and loser as Minor combat. Raiders get to attack first, then defenders attack, but with added strength as described below.
Castles currently apparently protect against port raids. I would like to contest this, as the castle in itself should not protect against ships sailing in close and boarding those in the harbor. Instead it should count as a number of ships for the purpose of inflicting damage to the port raider. Imagine archers shooting at the ship trying to enter the harbor area and burn down/attack moored ships.
Suggestion 2: Castles gives +1 to dice for port defenders.
Suggestion 3: Each unit with bow trait in the castle province deals damage as if they were 1 ship, up to the castle garrison size (2x castle lvl), even if the bow units have the garrison status.
Artillery units should protect against port raids - How much you ask? Well, a ballista could be placed on a ship, even if it would have a hard time damaging other ships (could still ruin rigging, kill crew). So it would be natural to count a ballista as one ship. It then follows that a catapult should be counted as 2 ships, and a trebuchet, due to its higher mass shot (shotgun bombardment) and much much longer range, so count them as either 3 or 4 ships. This should also offset that they have 0 move, meaning they are the king of defense.
Suggestion 4: Ballistas count as 1 ship, catapults as 2 ships and trebuchets as 4 ships.
Discuss!
|
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Mar 14, 2017 22:21:33 GMT
My first thought: The term "raiders" should probably avoided to avoid confusion with the "raid" action. What appears to be discussed is rather an outright attack.
Second thought: Units can already be added to ships, at a cost of 5GB, .5GB upkeep, count as militias for raids, add one damage dice, do not add hp (see elsewhere for full rules on that unit). So being able to add artillery in addition to that? Not sure if that's a good idea.
Third thought: Any province of lvl 3 or lower can be attacked from the sea zone. Accordingly, land-units should have no effect in this instance, as the ships in the province are effectively being attacked at sea, and not at port.
Fourth thought: I need to read the Birthright rules first to figure out what the existing rules are for ships attacking ships in a province.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mercia(andreas) on Mar 14, 2017 22:22:46 GMT
Just let defending archers and artillery on the castle walls, deal damage as 1 ship per 10 hp for archers and for artillery per 5 hp.
|
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Mar 14, 2017 22:26:44 GMT
My first thought: The term "raiders" should probably avoided to avoid confusion with the "raid" action. What appears to be discussed is rather an outright attack. Second thought: Units can already be added to ships, at a cost of 5GB, .5GB upkeep, count as militias for raids, add one damage dice, do not add hp (see elsewhere for full rules on that unit). So being able to add artillery in addition to that? Not sure if that's a good idea. Third thought: Any province of lvl 3 or lower can be attacked from the sea zone. Accordingly, land-units should have no effect in this instance, as the ships in the province are effectively being attacked at sea, and not at port. Fourth thought: I need to read the Birthright rules first to figure out what the existing rules are for ships attacking ships in a province. Updated original post to reflect that port raids are NOT province raids, and are instead a form of limited sea combat (equivalent of a siege breach combat in land combat), with the purpose of destroying ships, and nothing else. |
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Mar 14, 2017 22:37:38 GMT
So the only earlier battle that comes close, the port was blockaded at the sea area (as per rules), and the blockaded ships made an attempt to escape, thus engaging the blockading ships. In other words, the port itself was never directly attacked.
The rules as written are not particularly detailed, but do open up the possibility of ships actively assaulting a castle. My suggestion is that ships should not be able to attack castles. In return, castles can't attack ships. (Edit: Passive siege is still a possibility, but the ships as described thus far do not exactly invite the idea of assault ships... unless such ships were developed).
With that suggestion assumed, that then leaves the question of "I have ship in sea zone 1 and wish to attack ship in Wessex". Firstly, I must be attacking the right direction - if the ship in question is docked on the western coast of Wessex, I cannot physically attack it.
Secondly, assuming the attacked ship is in port, Wessex should not count as a port province - i.e., it should take 2 moves to enter, on account of being hostile. Revert to 1 if Wessex is friendly. This also raises the question: What if my ships are in a hostile lvl 4 province or above? Does that count as not being in a port i.e. I can be attacked from the sea?
Finally, should ships in port even be capable of being attacked by ships directly, or must the port be taken by land units?
|
|
|
|
Post by Caerleon (Tristan) on Mar 14, 2017 23:08:55 GMT
So we are talking about wage war actions using ships to attack ships.
Situation 1 - the province has no port.
- ships in province (as opposed to the sea zone) can be attacked freely. Fight the battle as per the normal.
Situation 2 - the province has a port (but no fortifications).
- ships in province (as opposed to the sea zone) can be attacked freely. Fight the battle as per the normal.
Situation 3 - the province has a port and forts/castles.
- ships in province up to castle/fort garrison limit are protected from attack unless the castle is breached as per normal siege rules.
- ships in province above this limit can be attacked freely. Fight the battle as per the normal.
A cutting out expedition is more accurately (IMO) an espionage/adventure action.
|
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Mar 14, 2017 23:10:57 GMT
Notably difference for 1: Attacking ships can remain in the sea zone. This is very important for mobility & blockades.
Situation 4 - the province has no port (i.e. lvl 3 or below), but forts/castles:
The forts & castles do not create a port, and without the specific "Port" structure, there's no reason to treat the province as if it has a port. See situation 1.
|
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Mar 14, 2017 23:12:07 GMT
So the only earlier battle that comes close, the port was blockaded at the sea area (as per rules), and the blockaded ships made an attempt to escape, thus engaging the blockading ships. In other words, the port itself was never directly attacked. The rules as written are not particularly detailed, but do open up the possibility of ships actively assaulting a castle. My suggestion is that ships should not be able to attack castles. In return, castles can't attack ships. (Edit: Passive siege is still a possibility, but the ships as described thus far do not exactly invite the idea of assault ships... unless such ships were developed). I agree. Castle cant force a fight on a blocking fleet. However, per EiA rules, a blocking fleet is not in the adjacent sea zone, but counts as being "in" the port (without being in the port), for the purpose of blocking the castle. With that suggestion assumed, that then leaves the question of "I have ship in sea zone 1 and wish to attack ship in Wessex". Firstly, I must be attacking the right direction - if the ship in question is docked on the western coast of Wessex, I cannot physically attack it. Secondly, assuming the attacked ship is in port, Wessex should not count as a port province - i.e., it should take 2 moves to enter, on account of being hostile. Revert to 1 if Wessex is friendly. This also raises the question: What if my ships are in a hostile lvl 4 province or above? Does that count as not being in a port i.e. I can be attacked from the sea? I would say yes, you can be attacked from sea. Landing troops outside of a friendly city (port or not), is done by being in the adjacent sea zone, and not in the port (same as in the rules in EiA). You can only enter the port if you have permission (friendly port), or there is no garrison in the province. Finally, should ships in port even be capable of being attacked by ships directly, or must the port be taken by land units? In EiA, if a blockaded port falls to land units, the ships are forced to attempt to leave. If they fail, they are all scuttled. To answer your question, I think there are several cases where it could be advantageous (and even a war goal) to decimate an enemy fleet, even if it entails attacking an enemy strong point like a well defended harbor. This is the case where a port raid would be appropriate. |
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Mar 14, 2017 23:20:32 GMT
So the only earlier battle that comes close, the port was blockaded at the sea area (as per rules), and the blockaded ships made an attempt to escape, thus engaging the blockading ships. In other words, the port itself was never directly attacked. The rules as written are not particularly detailed, but do open up the possibility of ships actively assaulting a castle. My suggestion is that ships should not be able to attack castles. In return, castles can't attack ships. (Edit: Passive siege is still a possibility, but the ships as described thus far do not exactly invite the idea of assault ships... unless such ships were developed). I agree. Castle cant force a fight on a blocking fleet. However, per EiA rules, a blocking fleet is not in the adjacent sea zone, but counts as being "in" the port (without being in the port), for the purpose of blocking the castle. With that suggestion assumed, that then leaves the question of "I have ship in sea zone 1 and wish to attack ship in Wessex". Firstly, I must be attacking the right direction - if the ship in question is docked on the western coast of Wessex, I cannot physically attack it. Secondly, assuming the attacked ship is in port, Wessex should not count as a port province - i.e., it should take 2 moves to enter, on account of being hostile. Revert to 1 if Wessex is friendly. This also raises the question: What if my ships are in a hostile lvl 4 province or above? Does that count as not being in a port i.e. I can be attacked from the sea? I would say yes, you can be attacked from sea. Landing troops outside of a friendly city (port or not), is done by being in the adjacent sea zone, and not in the port (same as in the rules in EiA). You can only enter the port if you have permission (friendly port), or there is no garrison in the province. Finally, should ships in port even be capable of being attacked by ships directly, or must the port be taken by land units? In EiA, if a blockaded port falls to land units, the ships are forced to attempt to leave. If they fail, they are all scuttled. To answer your question, I think there are several cases where it could be advantageous (and even a war goal) to decimate an enemy fleet, even if it entails attacking an enemy strong point like a well defended harbor. This is the case where a port raid would be appropriate. In RoE, ships in a sea zone adjacent to the province blockade the province; both for blockade and for passive siege. They do not need to be in the province.
Per Linde, ships in a sea zone can attack into a province without a port, without entering the province.
Given that we aren't dealing with fleets of the type or anywhere near the size as in EiA, I am hesitant to use the same rules. They make some very different assumptions. Similarly, it is probably inaccurate to assume that most harbors are well-defended in a manner reminiscent of EiA - unless they have a castle, in which case the ships just outright can't be attacked (Per Linde).
|
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Mar 14, 2017 23:21:15 GMT
To clarify, most (if not all) coastal cities, province level below 4, have some sort of bay or the likes where ships can moor and transfer goods to the city by smaller row boats. In other words they can sail close to the castle and get the protection it offers. In this case I could see an argument made that archers should not provide support, as the distance is too great.
The port classification as I understand it, is that the city/province in question has a pier where ships can sail all the way in and directly transport goods ashore, without the need for smaller rowboats. Ships in this position should get the full protection castle and province can offer.
I acknowledge that ships in our settings are rather small, however I refuse to believe they are flat bottomed, since that would make most of the rules in the regents guide pointless.
|
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Mar 14, 2017 23:24:23 GMT
Well, we aren't using most of the rules in the regents guide for ships in the first place  But in any case, castles provide protection to a # of ships equal to however ships they can have docked (I believe the RoE rules specify this). In light of that, and in light of the upkeep cost of most artillery, I think Linde's answers in the assorted questions answer most. This does leave open the question of: What if land troops try to evict your ships (and under what conditions can they do so) and vice versa? |
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Mar 14, 2017 23:33:20 GMT
Well, we aren't using most of the rules in the regents guide for ships in the first place But in any case, castles provide protection to a # of ships equal to however ships they can have docked (I believe the RoE rules specify this). In light of that, and in light of the upkeep cost of most artillery, I think Linde's answers in the assorted questions answer most. This does leave open the question of: What if land troops try to evict your ships (and under what conditions can they do so) and vice versa? 1) There is no limit to number of ships in a port in EiA. Remeber that one ship can dock on the outside of another making very efficient use of space, even if exiting the port again will take time (I have myself witnessed 5 layers I think it was on special occasion of sailors seeking refuge from a storm). With the fleet sizes we have seen so far, I do not believe it will (ever) become an issue. If you look to natural ports like the ones in Helsinkii or Malta, you will note that they could potentially hold hundreds of ships, if closely packed. 2) See my earlier post. If the castle falls to an assault from land, the blockaded ships in its harbor are forced to attempt a "sortie" to break the blockade (I believe we saw the slavers attempt this albeit due to a burning port/rebels and not enemies controlling port defenses), if it fails they surrender/are scuttled/are burned as the port defenses are turned on them. |
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Mar 14, 2017 23:38:23 GMT
Well, we aren't using most of the rules in the regents guide for ships in the first place But in any case, castles provide protection to a # of ships equal to however ships they can have docked (I believe the RoE rules specify this). In light of that, and in light of the upkeep cost of most artillery, I think Linde's answers in the assorted questions answer most. This does leave open the question of: What if land troops try to evict your ships (and under what conditions can they do so) and vice versa? How it will be until further notice: Land units evict your ships by occupying the province. But only if the ships are not within a castle. Ships within a castle are evicted if a castle falls (not just invested, it must be breached and taken by siege combat) If evicted ships are blockaded a naval battle will be fought. Should ships that try to run the blockade loose, the crew will scuttle the ships on their way towards the shore. |
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Mar 14, 2017 23:40:20 GMT
Well, we aren't using most of the rules in the regents guide for ships in the first place But in any case, castles provide protection to a # of ships equal to however ships they can have docked (I believe the RoE rules specify this). In light of that, and in light of the upkeep cost of most artillery, I think Linde's answers in the assorted questions answer most. This does leave open the question of: What if land troops try to evict your ships (and under what conditions can they do so) and vice versa? 1) There is no limit to number of ships in a port in EiA. Remeber that one ship can dock on the outside of another making very efficient use of space, even if exiting the port again will take time (I have myself witnessed 5 layers I think it was on special occasion of sailors seeking refuge from a storm). With the fleet sizes we have seen so far, I do not believe it will (ever) become an issue. If you look to natural ports like the ones in Helsinkii or Malta, you will note that they could potentially hold hundreds of ships, if closely packed. 2) See my earlier post. If the castle falls to an assault from land, the blockaded ships in its harbor are forced to attempt a "sortie" to break the blockade (I believe we saw the slavers attempt this albeit due to a burning port/rebels and not enemies controlling port defenses), if it fails they surrender/are scuttled/are burned as the port defenses are turned on them. 1) There is, however, a limit to the number of ships in a port in RoE. Off the top of my head, I believe it's 2x province level.
2) I'm not sure that's necessarily a good rule, although I am not sure what I'd replace it with.
|
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Mar 14, 2017 23:41:10 GMT
Well, we aren't using most of the rules in the regents guide for ships in the first place But in any case, castles provide protection to a # of ships equal to however ships they can have docked (I believe the RoE rules specify this). In light of that, and in light of the upkeep cost of most artillery, I think Linde's answers in the assorted questions answer most. This does leave open the question of: What if land troops try to evict your ships (and under what conditions can they do so) and vice versa? 1) There is no limit to number of ships in a port in EiA. Remeber that one ship can dock on the outside of another making very efficient use of space, even if exiting the port again will take time (I have myself witnessed 5 layers I think it was on special occasion of sailors seeking refuge from a storm). With the fleet sizes we have seen so far, I do not believe it will (ever) become an issue. If you look to natural ports like the ones in Helsinkii or Malta, you will note that they could potentially hold hundreds of ships, if closely packed. 2) See my earlier post. If the castle falls to an assault from land, the blockaded ships in its harbor are forced to attempt a "sortie" to break the blockade (I believe we saw the slavers attempt this albeit due to a burning port/rebels and not enemies controlling port defenses), if it fails they surrender/are scuttled/are burned as the port defenses are turned on them. This is not EiA, castles provide protection for a number of ships equal to castle level x 2 And port limits are 2 x province level for simultaneous docking. (for the purpose of how many ships can transport troops and such during a single war move) |
|
