|
Post by Caerleon (Tristan) on Jun 2, 2016 7:05:04 GMT
Any other feedback regarding experiences with the rules during warfare is most welcome. So this is a very random train of thought list of things that I've run into from experiencing and looking into the warfare rules. Some of this are just observations and other are things I perceive as issues.
- If you want to hold the field then morale is king, seriously armies of undead just don't shift no matter how much damage you do the units around them.
- Pursuits are anaemic, they do very little damage until you have a lot of cavalry. - In line with the above the Defensive trait is underpowered.
- Having trait bonuses is massive (I.e. Heavy, Cavalry, etc.).
- The Goblin army list is overpowered (for it's cost), compare Infantry/Hobgoblin Infantry, cheapest Bow unit (both trait and muster), (equal) cheapest Cavalry unit and Wolf Riders are better than Outriders hand down. I'd also rank Ogres as the best unit in the game.
- Outflank to negate Outflank is silly (to me at least), why can't one side succeed and the other fail (I.e. your army doesn't get lost and his does).
- Random draw (effectively) to choose attacker/defender chit's is silly. It negates the benefit of having highly trained/skilled characters and allows a player who understands the system to mathematically game his chances (even though he might have a worse general).
- Apart from sharing damage around I didn't notice any benefit to having sub-commanders. Do you get the benefit of all Blood Abilities across all the leaders with an army or only the general?
- Summoned unit mortality doesn't make sense to me, as a general I'd be putting summoned units into the most dangerous positions (because they may not hang around for the entire campaign).
|
|
|
Post by Mercia(andreas) on Jun 2, 2016 7:32:05 GMT
I wonder if the commander system can be made more dynamic, so a 3,3,4 commander and a 3,3,2 could work together, effectively becoming a 3,3,6 commander?
And commanders can focus his command as well allowing a 3,3,4 to become a 4,3,2(+ 1 tactical and half command size).
This allows for greater effective armies with multible commanders(so secondary commanders arent bodyguards but commanders).
In remarks to pursuit, maybe give non cavalry units some pursuit value, maybe something like 0.2 per movement speed above 3 and like 0.6 if they have the cavalry trait.
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 2, 2016 8:27:50 GMT
I have played around with the system and also played EiA.
The chit picks (strategy choice) is supposed to be somewhat random, but if you know what is going on, then you will outpick the enemy more often than not. This wont factor in as much when facing NPC's but against players you should see an impact.
Cavalry is a nice thing to have, but I do not know what dmg they do compared to normal units. Linde?
My main beef right now is how cheap it seems summoned units are. Basically the cost is the same, but you save a ton of gold on upkeep. The downside is that you will need to keep spell slots occupied (which is a nonfactor for high level casters) and that you do not get any traits. But for defensive purposes, they are unmatched. Say you have two or tree summons ready along with one or two of the morale boost spells in a province with a castle. Perhaps with a single unit to continously patrol to spot attacks. It will be free to keep it up and when someone attacks they are met with 4 morale and unmodified battle. Enough to repel them, for a single character action + 1x upkeep each turn. I think Bayard/TOG/ET can already attest to the cost of upkeep to troops compared to income is heavy. Especially when NPC realms seem to be able to muster and upkeep huge armies, much more than they should be able to afford, with no negative events. But I guess that all goes back to the overuse of magic in a "low magic" setting.
As to the commanders, I think it would be nice if you only command half of what you can command, then you get +1. Preventing your commander from dying is a very important aspect, so perhaps there should be an option to lead from behind, giving some penalties, but reducing dmg taken?
I would suggest giving all magic wielders -1/-1/-1 base in their warfare scores, since they are not warriors, and very likely have spent all their time on other things than studying the art of war. Access to magic is more than enough to make up for this, and you can always get a LT to lead your army. Remember, going the other way, to hire a magic LT and use him to cast spells for warfare is almost impossible.
TL:DR - Magic OP, nerf it in general, much less so for temples.
|
|
|
Post by Mercia(andreas) on Jun 2, 2016 9:40:27 GMT
I would suggest giving all magic wielders -1/-1/-1 base in their warfare scores, since they are not warriors, and very likely have spent all their time on other things than studying the art of war. Access to magic is more than enough to make up for this, and you can always get a LT to lead your army. Remember, going the other way, to hire a magic LT and use him to cast spells for warfare is almost impossible. I dont think such penality should apply unless they busy themselves with battle magic during the battle.
|
|
|
Post by Godfred Thraw BayardsKing(GT) on Jun 2, 2016 9:57:02 GMT
In my opinion i imagine that sorcerer don't known well the common humans .... so they have malus to lead them in a battle ... worst than a rogue ... who known human but not war ... I think that army lead by a priest don't be well lead and command on the Front ... for example
|
|
|
Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Jun 2, 2016 10:42:35 GMT
Have you seen any around in this game? I can share having at least 1 of my 4 spell slots blocked is very much a problem. A blocked slot + 2GB preparation + 4 rp/unit (Tier 1) might not seem much but I can tell that for realms that spend half their slots and 4-6 GB/6-14RP each turn on beneficial spells for others that cost is high. TOG its regent manipulated (burned) bloodline just to be able to meet the RP cost. I've heard none caster Landed Regents are stacking it up but remember Temples do nothing but use rp on realm spells and other, being able to have 20-50 rp just sitting around specifically in case of a response Summon action is quite impossible when running an active realm. Higher up Tier 2 & 3 specifically summons are extremely expensive rp wise, plus the amount is quite limited (though it is easier for Druids to summon them.) Tier 2 cost 12 RP per unit for example. I understand where you are coming from but the example given by you is just not realistic in this game. Having 3-5 spellslots constantly prepared with summons ánd battlespells in case of attack is impossible with active realms and characters between lvl5-9. Preparation cost of just two Tier 1 & one Tier 2 + two Morale spells is about 13 GB + court actions if you are preparing more than one a time. That's not counting the reserves you need to comfortably cast all that. Meanwhile we are ignoring every single other Magic aspect of the game such as Beneficial Realm spells, prepared Dispels, Scrying, etc. Regular troops can also not be countermagicked or forcibly unsummoned. Another caster could block your defense plan if you lean only on Summons. To sum up, not as great in practice as on paper. (Small fact besides.) Effectively the Tier 1 summons raised by TOG had the most damage dealt to them and took almost all the losses. Which is what they are for, systemwise I take it it is because of the spot they occupy morale/mortality wise? I look at the mathematicians for confirmation or critique of the last statement On the original post, concerning the pursuits: I personally like the fact that they are not that deadly without cavalry. I've always disliked the highly unrealistic 'one battle lost everyone dead scenarios' which are rare here. The suggestion below to give other troops a minor pursuit damage modifier depending on speed is a good one though.
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 2, 2016 11:47:28 GMT
If you are not getting reimbursed for your blessings, then you must be getting something else. I am currently losing money to blessings, but I do it anyway because it is the right thing to do. More importantly it is something my regent would do. Note that landed lords do not have the problem you are referring to, and can use all their spell slots to be prepared if they so wish. But that is a choice, and I am solely talking game balance war wise. What do the different ways to be prepared cost compared to each other.
Correct me if I am wrong, but dont you prepare a spell once, and then it stays in your spell slot until you use it, or decide to use it for something else? I must admit I am a little fuzzy on the magic rules, but this is how I understod them.
I can tell you that until turn 4 I have already spent an excess of 25GB on units, and that is without any war, or prospect of war! So a one time cost of a few GB and a few RP to be ready is a vastly superior prospect. The only downside being you have to spend a few extra regent actions to get there. Personally I have regent actions to spare, and I am not even the smallest realm around.
|
|
|
Post by Mercia(andreas) on Jun 2, 2016 12:46:32 GMT
Is it possible to ready mustering, in a similar way to preparing these summoning spells?
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 2, 2016 13:03:14 GMT
Is it possible to ready mustering, in a similar way to preparing these summoning spells? As far as I know: - Mustering shows up at a later turn since the units take time tro train. - Levy shows up the following(?) war move, since your nobles need some time to gather their men. They can thus be used as a poor mans defense if you have the levy action readied. I think Linde wrote somewhere that they can always be used to fight of invaders before a province can be occupied. Not sure about the timing. - Summons show up instantly, since they have a cast time of hours.
|
|
|
Post by Mercia(andreas) on Jun 2, 2016 13:16:00 GMT
You can rush both mustering and Levy, at the cost of their experience level.
Or you could have a prepared hire mercenaries, they are described to be instant.
And preparing spells are a character action, typically regent action. While Mustering and Hire mercenaries can be done with court actions.
|
|
|
Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 2, 2016 15:15:47 GMT
Landed realms get access to levies, which is noticeably cheaper than summons, action & cost-wise.
The lack of garrison might explain why summoned units appear so much cheaper. Under regular rules, that 25gb spent is closer to 12.5gb (and we haven't even gotten to the cost of ships yet )
Pretty sure goblins are cheaper/stronger to make up for chaotic/evil realms and only being present in a province or two.
Edit: Re: Nemeth's complaint of NPC realms seemingly infinite resources, I kinda agree. When NT offered 10GB per holding lvl in Camelot, and 5GB per holding lvl elsewhere, it made me wonder how on earth they ever amassed such wealth. With no upkeep or other expenses, that's about a season's worth of income per holding lvl!
I'd comment on the Slavers projected upkeep costs, but given the ongoing situation, I am refraining.
|
|
|
Post by NSE (Falea of Tir Mor) on Jun 2, 2016 15:30:38 GMT
Preparing more than one spell cuts into court actions and counts as your only (realm) action for the round. It adds up fast *cough*especially if you bless and have dispel realm magic always up*cough*
And yes, once prepared the spell remains available until utilized, but typically caster regents have at most 5 slots...and the higher the realm spell the fewer slots it fits into.
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 2, 2016 17:39:07 GMT
Landed realms get access to levies, which is noticeably cheaper than summons, action & cost-wise.
The lack of garrison might explain why summoned units appear so much cheaper. Under regular rules, that 25gb spent is closer to 12.5gb (and we haven't even gotten to the cost of ships yet )
Pretty sure goblins are cheaper/stronger to make up for chaotic/evil realms and only being present in a province or two.
Edit: Re: Nemeth's complaint of NPC realms seemingly infinite resources, I kinda agree. When NT offered 10GB per holding lvl in Camelot, and 5GB per holding lvl elsewhere, it made me wonder how on earth they ever amassed such wealth. With no upkeep or other expenses, that's about a season's worth of income per holding lvl!
I'd comment on the Slavers projected upkeep costs, but given the ongoing situation, I am refraining. Actually, the slavers make sense when you get the full story, which is why I am not using them as an example. The problem as I see it is that more than half of all realms have access to realm magic. Having a LT (court magician) who can cast personal spells is fine, but on a realm level is a whole other thing for a supposed low magic setting. Also, 3 out of 4 instigators (TPK, terror, slavers, ToB) are magic wielders.
|
|
|
Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 2, 2016 17:51:27 GMT
Beyond Blessings (fairly standard for birthright), GLFs summons, ToBs undead, and a missing relic, what realm magic have we actually seen? The most notable powerful example I can think of is the Pirate King's max-prosperity & loyalty magic, but he is secondary to the story at any rate.
As far as the summons go, I was lead to believe they were very expensive and had little effect beyond decimating HTOGs knights. So cost-wise, it evened out, albeit in GLFs favour.
It seems to me that the primary over-use of magic, if any, has been the constant reliance on spells in adventures and role-play, even though they're not strictly speaking necessary from a practical point of view (skill + attribute bonus is ultimately what determines success, not spells).
|
|
|
Post by Mercia(andreas) on Jun 2, 2016 18:03:33 GMT
Truth be told researching realm magic takes 1 research character action per level of the spell, so the potential of magic might simply not had the opportunity to unfold yet.
|
|