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Post by Godfred Thraw BayardsKing(GT) on Jun 8, 2016 6:18:10 GMT
Just to said for undead : it's low cost in gold but you have a very bad reputation ... this is a very expensive price to compensate...
If it was the same price, ... jorn will use sommoned nature allies
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Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Jun 8, 2016 10:33:42 GMT
Look. I have a gutted spell list as pure Divine domain to start with. If a suggestion such as yours, which is based purely on presumptions and some highly debatable examples, would get through it would be preposterous. The way the magic/domain system works and is balanced, what you want just does not work. Stating you don't want to damage the Temple domains with it blatantly ignores the reality of the consequences of your idea. As an example, then we would have move the Anti-summon spells up as well and they would be level 7-8. Right now People can Dismiss enemy summons with one spell and a simple check. It would require a complete reworking of the Arcane/Divine/Primordial spell list. It just works differently than you try to represent it. You are primarly afraid of the edge magic wielding Landed Domains might have over you. Well, they need to fight others for the sources, their regent characters have invested heavily in it, they gain no RP from the holdings. If/when they die (one adventure/espionage/battle away) they lose that ability. Furthermore, in this game domain spells are personal to a character not a domain. All one death away from being gone. The average landed regent has to get/do the feat, the long research, the rule actions, the leylines, the preparation, the money(and I can tell you this is a lot), all on a 'side project' and then he can cast within his/her limited area. If one focuses a tenth of all those actions on simple espionage, the person is dead. I could say that Espionage is overpowered, but no; it is the edge guilds have (and likewise which others can do as well) that keeps me on my toes. Just as Realm Magic should have you on your toes, but not fearstricken. Do you really worry that much? Then get Temples/Sorcerors on your side to Dispel things such as that. That after all is what they are for and is why a concept such as a State Faith or Court Wizards exist. Myself I got bodyguards and a defensive pool. @bayard: Indeed. Though I suspect Jorn Morrow does not care, I doubt it many players would use it considering the massive roleplay consequences.
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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 8, 2016 12:24:23 GMT
Traits being as powerful as they appear to me, am I understanding it correctly that a unit of Engineers automatically and immediately wins against a unit of levies?
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Post by Jessica Carleon (Carleon) on Jun 8, 2016 12:43:49 GMT
Traits being as powerful as they appear to me, am I understanding it correctly that a unit of Engineers automatically and immediately wins against a unit of levies? Assuming equal leaders, plains terrain and every roll (all 6 of them) rolled 3. I'll also note in my example that the 19 Summons had very little damage while the Engineers had 1 HP left. Morale makes you hold the field, it doesn't promise you come out with less damage. Just ask the Lothians.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 8, 2016 17:13:28 GMT
TOG, you are correct in most of what you write, but there a few things I must disagree with. Firstly, the mages get as much RP as anyone else. Secondly, you are correct that magic is expensive. But it is not much more so than an espionage action, when you factor in the need to pump influence in it to get anything done. That is what the extra resources spent on magic gets you. Certainty. No rolls, no checks, just BAM what you wanted happened. Also, magic is a do all action. You might need to spend 1gb to research it first, but then you can give your troops morale and do things that you could never dream of doing with espionage. Not to mention that you can make magic and espionage work together. An option non casters do not have. And lastly, supposedly we are playing a low magic setting. All events so far has had to do with magic.
Temples do not have readily access to troops or support on espionage actions. Landed realms have access to troops,but no magic and no espionage buffs. Guilds got maximum buffs to their espionage actions, but not readily access to troops or magic. On paper it seems balanced, but then you realize magic can accomplish the two others. Again, to me it still seems cheaper to make sure something happens, than spending RP to influence the roll and have a chance that something happens. Would you care to put up a calculation that proves me wrong? And do not forget that troops are expensive to upkeep. You might not have access to primordial spells, but you have better provinces and have access to knights compared to the other faiths.
Now it so happens that I know multiple realms have attempted realm magic in my land. It is pure chance that I know of it (thanks NSE). I have no way of knowing when something like that happens since "I do not own any sources". On top of that I cannot spend RP to stop for instance a magical assassination attempt. That is not how it works with Espionage or an army. If either of those actions fail, then you damn well know of it, or can see the banners of the army. Would you look the other way if an enemy tried to walk troops all over your lands or attempted to steal your stuff? No, it would be obvious to all, and you would declare war. If he did the same with magic? Not so much.
I am not "fear stricken" (NSE has me covered in the magic department) I am merely listing the facts as I perceive them. Is that not the purpose of this thread?
As to my previous statements, If I could trade my standing army for a readied +1.5 morale buff, then I would do that, as the morale buff is good enough to make Militia into Infantry, at a price where it has paid for itself in two turns.
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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 8, 2016 17:54:04 GMT
A very important part of magic is: To cast a realm spell targeting a province (or any target within that province) you must have a temple or source holding there of a level equal to or greater that the level of the spell being cast.
Ley lines are needed to connect sources Temple(0) is sufficient for temples (NSE can connect sources with temples)
Meaning that: The only people who can cast spells in a province must have both a holding of at least lvl 0 there, connected to a lvl holding high enough elsewhere. Nemeth just happens to have 4 sources and 2 temples in them.
You can spend influence to reduce the chance of a holding being established or ruled.
They still need to succeed a concentration check, based on the difficulty of the spell and the distractions presented to them. So there is supposed to be a DDC for spell casting, which means that you can influence against it. With just 1 RP spent against a realm spell (which should be possible), you can completely ruin a spell casters day (1 realm action + the RP/GB spent on trying to a cast a spell). DDC for casting spells appears to be inadequately described, but it isn't supposed to be non-existent.
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Or in other words, a lot of casters have decided to invest heavily in specifically being able to cast realm spells in Nemeth. Obviously you're going to have the perception that magic is overpowered, much like someone would perceive espionage as being overpowered if 3-4 Guilds starting throwing free bonus espionage actions against them. That's right. Free. No GB spent. Probably no RP spent, unless you're trying to assassinate. Counter-espionage would likely be countered in that event, and you wouldn't easily be able to figure out who did what, when, where and why.
In fact, if you're correct, people have spent 8-12 domain actions in Nemeth for 1 turn... that's a huge cost. It's enormous. Of course it's going to have enormous effects.
Oh, and espionage can be used to trace the source of magical effects. Or you can try it at least. Plus, most people can easily work out which wizard did what, when, where and why.
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And finally, most events have not had to do with magic. It's just not true.
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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 8, 2016 18:04:51 GMT
Consider the following: Most realm spells are going to be very limited in when and where they can be applied.
For every realm spell that people cast, an espionage action can be thrown back anytime, anywhere, with minimal cost. The more you invest in the espionage, the more likely it will have a spell-like effect. Guilds aren't spending their RP anywhere important, so they have plenty available to invest as needed. And every landed realm can engage in espionage, so Guilds don't even have a monopoly on that.
I'm going to support ToG in this: Realm magic, as it is, is not overpowered. It costs a lot to be able to even cast the spell in the first place, and then casting the spell is not cheap either.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 8, 2016 19:38:25 GMT
You need to have a source to be able to spend RP to contest someone attempting to rule up/create a source. You do not need to own a source in a province to cast realm magic in that province. A ley link is enough. If TPK wanted, he could forge a ley link connection to Nemeth, and be able to cast lvl 9 spells in Nemeth. Nothing to be done about it, unless you have researched a spell to counter it. He can sit on his island far far away in a place of perfect concentration and cast his magic. But I suspect that it is too far even for him - which is not the case on Albion/Hibernia.
Sorry, but from my questions about magic I am under the clear impression that anything short of hitting the caster in his place of perfect concentration will have no effect and the magic will take hold without a check. (Dont attempt to cast magic after your best friend was just killed)
Some spells have big enough area of effect to affect adjacent provinces.
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Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Jun 9, 2016 11:04:42 GMT
First of: We might disagree, but when it comes down to the pervasiveness of Realm Magic as you seem to think of it, think on this statement. There is no abundance of Realm Magic users, they are exceedingly rare. TOG its regent personally knows and/or maintains diplomatic ties to all of the people able to cast Realm Magic within Albion and Hibernia with the exception of Merlin, the Terror, and the Church of the Sacred Flame. There are perhaps just enough of these people to fill in a game of Mega Civilization. My count does not even reach that high, counting two for NSE and TOG each and adding one that others probably do not yet realise can cast. A Sorceror gains a good amount of RP indeed when he has a network up, yet this is his prime resource, just as GB is for Landed Regents and Guilds. Furthermore certainty on realm magic is only as long it is not stopped via Protection from Realm Magic or Dispel Magic, both of which allow an opposing caster to counter it. (A good part of my available spells are spells to oppose other magic actions.) I do not perceive it as chance, NSE is your State Faith and as such should inform you of these occurences. That is exactly what State Faith/Court Wizard's are for, to inform and to counter things you cannot influence personally with your Regent. If a person performs an action with Espionage or an army under a different banner, it requires Espionage and roleplay to find out the actual instigator. Much the same with the Realm Magic yet a True Magic capable person with a Source/Temple in the province can figure out what type of spell is being cast and as such deduct who is casting. Of course I would not look the other way if something as an invasion happened. But the conclusion you make for yourself that you cannot react in the same way when someone casts a spell in your domain is a personal one. I am very sure that if someone other than me casts a realm spell in Camelot the consequences would be grave. And if someone targets me with a realm spell you can be sure people would hear about and there better be some damn good explaining to do. Your domain certainly has a convergence of possible casters, yet as Landed Regent it is your complete right to step in with carrot and sizeable stick to lay down some rules. For example, ask NSE to ward your capital (Protection from Realm Magic) and state publicly that if a Sorceror or Temple wishes to perform a working of power in your land they should be so kind as to ask permission (and then NSE can let them). If casters do not acquiescence, well you have a State Faith which can contest Sources. When it comes down to the Temple side specifically, TOG has a good working relationship with NSE, but if a third party tries to squirm its way in I see no reason why I would not try and squash them. (Again, within my capability as I have the half of Albion to worry about. Which is the downside of being a Temple or a Guild.) On the trade, you are in fact not trading for a +1,5 Morale buff. You are trading for the entire thing needed to be able to cast it to start with. The feats, the bloodline, the networks, the research, the preparations and the troops to cast it on. If it's not countered. Furthermore, you don't even have to trade for it, you've got NSE, your friendly neighbourhood State Faith. (And depending on the enemy, TOG. There is an advantage as well to having multiple friendly casters). So in fact you already have the capability at your fingertips. Fear stricken was a bit harsh, I realize and apologize for it. I do stand by the rest, being that your earlier suggestion is unreasonable as the impact of it is only as big as you make it by debatable examples. This is in fact incorrect. As quoted by you before it is possible to forge a ley link to a province without an actual holding, but one still needs at least the holding there to be able to cast. The actual casting of Arcane Realm Magic always requires a source present. The one does not alleviate the basic requirements for the spell. It's a bit odd but I imagine there is bound to be some reason why one would want end a ley line like that.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 9, 2016 12:12:02 GMT
If you are correct, which I doubt, then a certain NPC realm might be screwing with the rules.
If RP is your prime resource, then why do you keep expression you need more GB, and that you wish to trade? I would dare say that GB is always the prime resource. As ST has said, RP is something you just accumulate.
Also, in Albion there are 4(5) landed realms who can cast magic: Tir Moreth, Dumonia, Mercia and Umbria. Arguably Lothia can as well. Realms who cannot are Nemeth, Alined, Camelot, Gawant, Carleon, Bayard and North Hold 5 vs 7 is almost half.
Your list of things I am trading to get a single spell is wrong: You get the feat for free when you are caster regent, the bloodline your regent always has, the network I would not need since most caster realms started with lvl 2 sources in their own provinces and the troops I have regardless, so that leaves two actions: research and preparation.
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Post by Mercia(andreas) on Jun 9, 2016 15:22:04 GMT
Note Mercia would need to choose the feat specificly(like other feats), and would be casting at half effecive caster level(rounded down) , so more like 4.5 caster realms.
And remember Nemeth, that Huriel could also help you with spell needs. I think your on good terms with him.
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Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Jun 9, 2016 18:42:43 GMT
But I am not a sorceror, I play a Temple, hence I also need large amounts of gold for a great amount of other things. On the trading, that was more of a joke. A full Arcane domain however has RP as primary concern in my opinion. The only two of those we have are Merlin and the Terror. No Rp, no spells. No GB? Make it with RP or substitute it with RP. Mercia is just getting into Realm Magic now. Of those listed only Tir Moreth, Dumonia and Umbria are caster domains. So its 3 out of 12, one of them because he's Sidhe. In fact, adding Hibernia it is 1 more caster/landed domain (Sidhe) and 3 landed keeping to that proportion. I do not know if Linde intended it as such but it is exactly one in four. Which seems like a reasonable figure. Counting Lothia is twisting the story a bit as it is an usurpation of a landed domain by a caster. It's like saying Caerleon would be a caster domain if TOG kills the Queen and invests itself, which is obviously not the case. On this: Excuse me Nemeth, but I could only answer to what was previous said by you: Firstly "Trading in your standing army" is not the same as starting the game as a caster domain. Thus I answered with the idea in mind that we were talking about such a trade, not restarting as a caster domain. Secondly, ".. and the troops I have regardless" you mention in your last reply; well, were you not trading those in? You can't say you trade them in and then take them back into your calculations. Starting your argument with 'I'd trade A for B' and then turning around and saying 'well, if I was a caster domain' is something different altogether. It is difficult, no impossible, to form a reasonable and satisfying answer under these circumstances. On the original discussion on the importance of boosting magic, a Morale buff on a Militia/Levy does not replace the HP, Mortality, Move or traits of units. And it's traits that weigh in importantly in this battle system. Ask the Lothians, their +1 DRM of the Heavy trait disappeared in the comparison of armies just because one Marine with the Engineer trait showed up on our side. And that mátters. The Coalition quit the field in every single battle due to Morale loss, and still the Lothian/TOB army suffered much higher casualties. They were winning themselves to death. A Knight, a Heavy Infantry and an Archer unit versus a stack of blessed levy or Militia will still win. One still needs troops for a buff to be meaningful. Decent troops if one wants to do more than stand and be ground down by better forces in one-two seasons. Do Dumonia/Tir Moreth/Umbria have an advantage on this? Yes, they could hypothetically cast their own buffs on their own hypothetically good units. They also have all the worry that comes with it, and that's quite a lot. It is a whole new front. Look at Umbria's state and see how much good it did them to be a hybrid domain. It is not overpowered, it is just a different facet and playstyle. Each realm has something that sets them apart. Very long story short, I really try to see it from your point of view. I think we just disagree on the actual impact the realm magic has. It is expensive, it is difficult to perform decently, it can be opposed. Knowing 4 out of 16 landed realms on the two isles are only capable of doing it, and 2 of those are Sidhe and insular, and furthermore knowing the actual caster realms need landed regents to support them, I cannot agree that it is over the top.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 9, 2016 19:41:33 GMT
Levy vs standing army. Two separate things. So yes, I could trade my standing army in, and still have access to levy with +1.5 morale.
"Hybrid" domains get the full advantage of both parts, and doesnt really pay anything for it, once the magical network is up and running. Why do caster realms need landed lords to support them?
We can agree to disagree. My assertions that certain spells should be higher level still stands. They are too good for small armies, so making them difficult to cast, and increasing the base cost is balancing. However if it should be 1, 2 or 3 lvls that is something I do not know. Otherwise, the morale boost could be lowered. In EiA where the war rules are from, most fights have morale 3 to 3.5, with the french being a notable exception with 4-4.2 (and the turks with 2-2.5, which they make up for with one shot pursuits if they win the fight). That 1 difference means the french win 3/4 if not more. If you have a morale difference of about 2, then you need to outpick someone, roll good, and the enemy needs to roll bad. All three at the same time is an exceedingly rare event.
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Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Jun 9, 2016 20:33:03 GMT
It has been pointed out by several people, just morale alone does not win a battle. Any idea what happened to my Summoned units? They were better than your +1,5 morale levy and they were turned into so much shis kebab in two battles time. It does not cut it. You need to constantly be prepared to act and defend on another level of playing with the Realm Magic and the holdings required for it. It is something extra to sink resources into. Same resources + more you have to spend it on = more difficult. It not some 'magical' asset that cannot be harmed and who's defence, sustance and opposition should never be taken into account by the owner. On the contrary. I can't even begin to explain my suprise at your question. Is it not obvious a non-landed domain needs the approval/assistance/non-competition of landed domains to be able to stay in existence, let alone function? Otherwise why do you think us non-landed chums are trying so hard to make binding treaties with the landed Regents and why we cater to their needs. And landed Regents need us non-landed for the realm to run smoothly. That the whole swirl of the game! If we did not need the landed regents you would not be sitting on a throne Hell, TOB decided he'd take over just like that. And both the landed and non-landed regents of the world suddenly started paying attention. This is a status quo you do not want to break, for you might be powerful for a day but you also make yourself the greatest target. And one realm which has to spend its resources and actions to defend itself diplomatically, militarily, espionage wise, and magically by itself will find itself unable to do so. It is impossible to maintain. But Nemeth. This is not EiA, the differences are certainly there. Most importantly wars are decided on more than Morale. I refer again to Lothia/TOB vs our Coalition, they won every battle and were losing the war. You may win some battles on a morale boost spell or a high morale force but you will not win wars on it. I look at the options and occurences with the long view, a battle is important but winning a war is more than winning some battles without minding the cost. But enough on that. If this does not bring it across we might be sitting here until the galaxy colapses.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 9, 2016 21:28:39 GMT
Ah, but you said caster realms, I took that to include Tir Moreth, Dumonia, Umbria and so on. Please write Temples, or non landed caster domains when that is what you mean. Your summons did what they were meant to do, which is different from how a landed lord would use them in defense. I know full well that I rely on my Temple for aid. That has never been in question, even if you might benefit from making it seem so! This is the war discussion, most of which is based on EiA. I have many hours of experience in that field, which I can rely on for chit picks, and stacking my army, morale and so on. Dismissing that out of hand is not a proper counter argument. Just as in EiA, wars are not necessarily won by battles. Attrition and allies are important factors, which I am not dismissing or belittling in any way. Even if I have not brought it up, it does not mean that I dismiss it. The core mechanic is actually quite similar in EiA and here, but enough about EiA.
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