|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 13:07:01 GMT
Clarification of rules for casting spells over sea:
It is possible to forge ley lines across open water, but doing so is difficult. Each sea area (including coastal sea areas) counts as 5 provinces for the purpose of determining DDC and RP cost. Ley lines crossing open water tend to become very unstable when crossing more than 3 consecutive areas of open water. A ley line can be forged as to terminate in a sea area, but since there is no terminus source to anchor it, it will always dissipate at the end of the turn.
Beginning in turn 9 I will enforce the need for ley lines across water with the following clarifications, restrictions and exemptions:
1) Druids who cast spells through ley lines rather than using their temple network cannot use the level of their temples holding for purpose of domain specific bonuses. (So all druids are limited to highest source level when casting realm spells across water with a ley line.)
2) Temple networks may target sea zones adjacent to coastal provinces where they have a temple holding, and since some islands are confined within sea zones they will be accessible through temple networks. Specifically the islands of Hebridges, Isle of Man and Helna are considered close enough to Oalriada/Alba, Carleon & Nemeth respectively, that Divine magic may cross those waters. (Orkney and Shetland are not)
3) Druids who use temple networks to cross over water to one of those three isle may not use the level of their source holdings for domain specific bonuses. (But will instead use temple holding levels to cast the spell)
4) Ley networks connecting to one of these isles from the listed boarder provinces are not considered to cross provinces.
5) Druids Connecting to one of those islands with a ley line, will have the choice of either using their source, or temple network to cast the spell. But domain specific bonuses that allow bonuses based on both holdings will not be allowed.
There have also been several readings on how arcane domains cast spells and their need for ley networks.
For clarification: If you cast a long range spell, you need a ley line from the province where you are, to the province where the source you use is, and to the province where the spell is cast. (This is true for all target provinces of long range spells)
If you cast a spell with medium or shorter range you need to be in the affected province or the province with the target (and is considered to travel between the provinces if multiple provinces are affected). You also need a ley line from the target province to the source you use to cast the spell. (This is also true for all target provinces)
In short: 1: A boost to both creating ley lines and temple networks ability to cast spells to/on Helna, Hebridges & Isle of Man. 2: A nerf to NSE & ToB's ability to cast high level spells on those isles (nothing they can't bypass if their holding levels are increased) 3: A nerf to GLF & ToB's ability to cast cheaper spells on those isles (tough luck) 4: Clarification that creating a ley line to Nagnati from Caerleon will count as crossing 17 provinces (And thus have a DDC of 27 +/- Support Hardiness & Influence)
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 13:08:20 GMT
The above post is suggested moved to the rules section (realm magic thread) so post here if you want to give feedback before this becomes a final ruling.
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Nov 3, 2016 13:26:59 GMT
Hmm, perhaps an example would be in order. Lets say NSE wishes to cast Gold Rush (lvl 5 spell) on the provinces of Nemeth and Helna. For this example they have Temple 3 and source 2 in both provinces. Would they be able to target both provinces with a single casting? The problem as I see it is that the spell requires lvl 5 temple/source. Normally they would state they use the source+temple on Helna (total lvl 5) to cast the spell targeting both provinces using the temple network, but with those rules the source is not part of the network outside Helna. Likewise sources in Nemeth will not work for the temple/source network for casting on Helna. So can you "split a spell" to be powered from several provinces, and not only a single one?
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 13:51:08 GMT
Hmm, perhaps an example would be in order. Lets say NSE wishes to cast Gold Rush (lvl 5 spell) on the provinces of Nemeth and Helna. For this example they have Temple 3 and source 2 in both provinces. Would they be able to target both provinces with a single casting? The problem as I see it is that the spell requires lvl 5 temple/source. Normally they would state they use the source+temple on Helna (total lvl 5) to cast the spell targeting both provinces using the temple network, but with those rules the source is not part of the network outside Helna. Likewise sources in Nemeth will not work for the temple/source network for casting on Helna. So can you "split a spell" to be powered from several provinces, and not only a single one? No, casting gold rush on Helna and any other province with a single spell would then require them to have one of the following: 1) A ley line from a lvl 5 source to Helna. (Standard rules, except the ley line is cheaper) 2) A lvl 5 temple in any province (Special ability + boost to temple spell casting network) (A single spell is powered by a single holding, or when using NSE special ability from a single combined holding)
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Nov 3, 2016 14:07:51 GMT
So in effect it makes it impossible to target province X + province Helna with Gold Rush (or any other multi province spell lvl 5+), as NSE has no lvl 5+ pure temple holdings. Helna has to be targeted using itself as source for the spell.
|
|
|
Post by NSE (Falea of Tir Mor) on Nov 3, 2016 14:55:09 GMT
The above primarily is for arcane spells, not primordial or divine, correct?
Divine and primordial spellcasters with access to temple holdings have certain advantages over arcane spellcasters. They have no need for creating or maintaining any ley lines, extensions or hookups. Instead their temple holdings give them access to what amounts to a ley network that connects all possible sources with an unlimited number of ley lines, extensions and hookups.
I.E. NSE can still cast dispel realm magic (primordial version) or bless the holy land (divine) on Reached in Bayard for example (level 0 holding but adjacent to province chain with any number of level 3+ temple holdings or level 3+ temple+source holdings, correct?
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 15:18:32 GMT
Yes, but to be fair: Core rules would make it illegal to target Helna with bless unless it was cast there separately. And would make it illegal to cast gold rush anywhere without a lvl 5 source.
The problem is that all the druids have cosmic power in this campaign. I did it for setting reasons and is looking for the best way to limit the effects as they currently are too great.
The proposed changes might not be the correct way.
Another way could be to implement the following:
Druids can cast spells of any kind depending on their druid level. But must have the appropriate holding of high enough level. And must adhere to core rules for casting spells of that type(Except class restrictions). So temple spells use temple network, arcane spells use ley lines and druidic use either.
That would still be a sizable boost to albion druids vs core druids. But would make gold rush dependent on the druids getting a lvl 5 source (just like wizards) and make NSE/ToB/GLF dependent on keeping civilization at least partly from one province each.
Lastly that would change special domain powers into general setting specific house rules and make spell casting more predictable and easier to check for errors by other players. (This last part is the biggest plus in this proposal as I am still rather distracted and could need general rules to aid me in keeping correctly track of magic)
NSE + GLF would then be compensated individually depending on need to change assets bought before game start or researhed during the game.
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 15:26:29 GMT
The above primarily is for arcane spells, not primordial or divine, correct? Divine and primordial spellcasters with access to temple holdings have certain advantages over arcane spellcasters. They have no need for creating or maintaining any ley lines, extensions or hookups. Instead their temple holdings give them access to what amounts to a ley network that connects all possible sources with an unlimited number of ley lines, extensions and hookups. I.E. NSE can still cast dispel realm magic (primordial version) or bless the holy land (divine) on Reached in Bayard for example (level 0 holding but adjacent to province chain with any number of level 3+ temple holdings or level 3+ temple+source holdings, correct? Answered Nemeth in the above post of mine here I will answer you: Temple networks only connect to temple holdings in adjacent provinces. Primordial spells (cast through arcane sources) can use that network or ley lines. So sources can't be used without ley lines unless there is a temple in the target province and an unbroken chain back to a source of sufficient level. Your example seems faulty as you lack temples in target provinces. (Without checking the p&h)
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 15:34:35 GMT
If nerfs are implemented it will go along with a description of a general hardness for all to cast spells and give an in game excuse for the apparent loss of potency of magic.
|
|
|
Post by NSE (Falea of Tir Mor) on Nov 3, 2016 15:35:45 GMT
Yes, but to be fair: Core rules would make it illegal to target Helna with bless unless it was cast there separately. And would make it illegal to cast gold rush anywhere without a lvl 5 source. Just to make sure I am tracking, was this due to Helna technically being an island? And in the rule change (rule 2), Helna would be able to be blessed as it has been since I began playing NSE in turn 3? Trying to make sure I understand fully scope of change and ensure I set up actions to make everything kosher and continue NSE's preferred use of bless land each turn.
|
|
|
Post by NSE (Falea of Tir Mor) on Nov 3, 2016 15:39:52 GMT
The above primarily is for arcane spells, not primordial or divine, correct? Divine and primordial spellcasters with access to temple holdings have certain advantages over arcane spellcasters. They have no need for creating or maintaining any ley lines, extensions or hookups. Instead their temple holdings give them access to what amounts to a ley network that connects all possible sources with an unlimited number of ley lines, extensions and hookups. I.E. NSE can still cast dispel realm magic (primordial version) or bless the holy land (divine) on Reached in Bayard for example (level 0 holding but adjacent to province chain with any number of level 3+ temple holdings or level 3+ temple+source holdings, correct? Answered Nemeth in the above post of mine here I will answer you: Temple networks only connect to temple holdings in adjacent provinces. Primordial spells (cast through arcane sources) can use that network or ley lines. So sources can't be used without ley lines unless there is a temple in the target province and an unbroken chain back to a source of sufficient level. Your example seems faulty as you lack temples in target provinces. (Without checking the p&h) Ah, okay. So Reched would be a no go (source 0) for dispel magic, while Deira would be a go (temple 0 + chain of divine holdings back to Mercia temple 3), right?
|
|
|
Post by X-Nemeth on Nov 3, 2016 15:50:29 GMT
I always assumed ToG got Camelot, the powerhouse of high level temple holdings, and several lvl 4 provinces, to offset not being able to pool sources and temples. With the added benefit that they dont have to compete with caster regents to get the extra power up, and the extra gold that gives. I never considered that temple networks do not extend over water (why would they not?). I think adjecency should be defined as a strict number of sea zones (or a fixed distance) instead of a blanket "no water" rule.
In my book it makes perfect sense that the temple domains are a couple of holding levels more powerful than any caster regent due to those holdings having a cheaper price. The upper limit on magical power is lvl 6 or 7 for most realm magicians anyway, temple or not, with the exception of Dumonia, on grounds that they only have a single province.
To your new proposal: Yes that seems fine, except I question why gold rush was solely an arcane spell in the first place (one could argue it could be both primordial - the earth provides and all that and arcane - transmute/create the metals). In fact I think the magic list could really use an overhaul. My thoughts would be that any researched spell is added to a forum thread with stats (silently updated, delayed at DM's discretion) and the regents guide is just that, a guideline to what you might be able to research and what is possible.
And just for the record: you can see Helna from most of the southern coast of Nemeth, so why is there anything special about that bit of relatively shallow water separation in regards to magic? Some 10000s of years and an ice age ago it used to be you could walk directly to Helna.
|
|
|
Post by NSE (Falea of Tir Mor) on Nov 3, 2016 15:56:21 GMT
To your new proposal: Yes that seems fine, except I question why gold rush was solely an arcane spell in the first place (one could argue it could be both primordial - the earth provides and all that and arcane - transmute/create the metals). In fact I think the magic list could really use an overhaul. My thoughts would be that any researched spell is added to a forum thread with stats (silently updated, delayed at DM's discretion) and the regents guide is just that, a guideline to what you might be able to research and what is possible. This has essentially been how NSE has approached it (and why NSE calls it Land's Abundance). I've asked to have it actually made a primordial level spell with an additional requirement of having to have NSE as state faith in any province they cast it in (to reflect the Tuatha de Dannan's intent to only give the abundance of the land to those most faithful to their tenets).
|
|
|
Post by Linde (x-GM) on Nov 3, 2016 17:37:14 GMT
1)I always assumed ToG got Camelot, the powerhouse of high level temple holdings, and several lvl 4 provinces, to offset not being able to pool sources and temples. With the added benefit that they dont have to compete with caster regents to get the extra power up, and the extra gold that gives. 2) I never considered that temple networks do not extend over water (why would they not?). I think adjecency should be defined as a strict number of sea zones (or a fixed distance) instead of a blanket "no water" rule. In my book it makes perfect sense that the temple domains are a couple of holding levels more powerful than any caster regent due to those holdings having a cheaper price. The upper limit on magical power is lvl 6 or 7 for most realm magicians anyway, temple or not, with the exception of Dumonia, on grounds that they only have a single province. 4)To your new proposal: Yes that seems fine, except I question why gold rush was solely an arcane spell in the first place (one could argue it could be both primordial - the earth provides and all that and arcane - transmute/create the metals). In fact I think the magic list could really use an overhaul. My thoughts would be that any researched spell is added to a forum thread with stats (silently updated, delayed at DM's discretion) and the regents guide is just that, a guideline to what you might be able to research and what is possible. 5) And just for the record: you can see Helna from most of the southern coast of Nemeth, so why is there anything special about that bit of relatively shallow water separation in regards to magic? Some 10000s of years and an ice age ago it used to be you could walk directly to Helna. 1) ToG got the sweet spot because they don't use arcane spells and Camelot had a ban. 2) standard rules is: "fixed number of sea zones: 0" 4) primordial generally have no spells that grow provinces as province growth is added civilization and in some form the destruction/domestication of nature. In this setting druids can grow provinces via arcane and divine spells. 5) maybe Jesus can't walk on water in the birthright setting? Seriously, I agree. That's why I proposed three islands exempted from the rules.
|
|
|
Post by SouthWestern Traders on Nov 3, 2016 17:41:16 GMT
1)I always assumed ToG got Camelot, the powerhouse of high level temple holdings, and several lvl 4 provinces, to offset not being able to pool sources and temples. With the added benefit that they dont have to compete with caster regents to get the extra power up, and the extra gold that gives. 2) I never considered that temple networks do not extend over water (why would they not?). I think adjecency should be defined as a strict number of sea zones (or a fixed distance) instead of a blanket "no water" rule. In my book it makes perfect sense that the temple domains are a couple of holding levels more powerful than any caster regent due to those holdings having a cheaper price. The upper limit on magical power is lvl 6 or 7 for most realm magicians anyway, temple or not, with the exception of Dumonia, on grounds that they only have a single province. 4)To your new proposal: Yes that seems fine, except I question why gold rush was solely an arcane spell in the first place (one could argue it could be both primordial - the earth provides and all that and arcane - transmute/create the metals). In fact I think the magic list could really use an overhaul. My thoughts would be that any researched spell is added to a forum thread with stats (silently updated, delayed at DM's discretion) and the regents guide is just that, a guideline to what you might be able to research and what is possible. 5) And just for the record: you can see Helna from most of the southern coast of Nemeth, so why is there anything special about that bit of relatively shallow water separation in regards to magic? Some 10000s of years and an ice age ago it used to be you could walk directly to Helna. 1) ToG got the sweet spot because they don't use arcane spells and Camelot had a ban. 2) standard rules is: "fixed number of sea zones: 0" 4) primordial generally have no spells that grow provinces as province growth is added civilization and in some form the destruction/domestication of nature. In this setting druids can grow provinces via arcane and divine spells. 5) maybe Jesus can't walk on water in the birthright setting? Seriously, I agree. That's why I proposed three islands exempted from the rules. As a naval power, I'd like to point out that the rules mention provinces as counting as adjacent if they share a sea zone (i.e. Dumonia, Wessex, Nemeth, Tir Mor and Helna are all considered adjacent to each other).
That allows for temples to, in effect, cross 1 sea zone (without actually crossing it), because any temple in Helna is adjacent to temples in Dumonia, Wessex, Nemeth and Tir Mor.
I can dig for the rule if you'd like? (pg. 53)
|
|