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Post by Linde (x-GM) on Dec 29, 2015 13:11:31 GMT
Another option we could consider is the option to transfer growth from one province to another. This is neither totally unrealistic not unhistoric, the ability to move people around being one of the advantages of the serf-bond. I'm not sure how it would work - some permutation of the Rule Province action, that instead of transforming gold into growth would transfer growth from one province to another. It might even be possible to combine it with temporarily seizing a province (through martial law) and transfering growth out of it, to represent indentured servitude/slavery. It would only really benefit those who have more than one province and would be really awesome for those who depend on magic level - such as me - as I could prevent one province from growing and speed up another. Perhaps... basically a Rule Province action, where every GB spent allows you to transfer 3GBs of growth from other provinces, with DDC scaling of the number of GB spent. So if you spent 3 GB transfering growth to a province, it would cost 3 GB, and the DDC would be province level + 3, and you could transfer 9 growth from other provinces. Instinct tells me that the exchange rate should be better than the 1-1 of normal rule actions (as you are transfering a resource, not generating it), but 1-3 might be too high... or too low. This means that those with 2+ provinces could spend an action or two per year highly optimizing their growth. Perhaps there should be a loss of growth? To provide 2 GB of growth, you need to consume 3GB elsewhere, to make it less efficient. This option would not create additional work for the gm, at the least, as it would just be part of normal action resolution. Dunno, decrees and such might also serve this purpose, with a decree setting up a "channel" of growth from one province to another. And yeah, elves get a benefit in return for slower growth. I don't get the most important one, as mine is a realm of half-bred mongrels, but [redacted] bonus is nice, as are elven units. Something along the lines of this?: Rule province: As an additional effect of the rule province action you may move a number of growth points equal to the GB you have spent on the action from another province you control or occupy to the province you rule. If you are the ruler of the province from where the growth is taken the exchange rate is 2:1 If you only occupy the province from where the growth is taken the exchange rate is 3:1 Prosperity in the province that loose growth will decrease by 1, and by 1 more if the province level is reduced as a result of this action. Furthermore, as you move your loyal subjects first, any holding levels lost due to decreased province level will come out of your holdings if possible.
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Post by X-Tir Moreth(Alexander) on Dec 29, 2015 18:15:10 GMT
I think I explained myself poorly, while that is a good idea (though the exchange rate is harsher than I imagined, but that might be right, I dunno). I imagined something like this:
Rule province: As an alternative to the normal Rule Province action, the regent may instead transfer growth from one province to another. For each GB spent on the rule province action, the regent may transfer 3 GBs worth of growth from one province to another. The DDC is based on the level of the province transfered to. The DDC is 10 + province level + gbs spent on the rule action.
Example: Sir RulesaLot (this is the Arthurian mythos after all) wants to transfer 6 growth from assorted provinces in his domain to AwesomeaLot, so he spends 2 GB to transfer growth. AwesomeaLot is a lvl 4 province, so the DDC is 16 (10 + 4 + 2 for GB expended). If succesful, the transfering provinces loose 6 GB growth in total and AwesomeaLot gains 6 growth at the end of turn.
That was my idea though. Putting in an exchange rate (50%, so 3GB growth -> 2 GB growth) or a prosperity hit in the target or donating provinces might be good... perhaps even both. I dunno, I have a very hard time evaluating the potential of this action. In the current setup, it's not very powerful. Once people have 3+ provinces, it can increase growth by a lot by focusing it on the smaller provinces, causing them to grow and generate growth faster thereafter. It makes sense though, as spending actions on your provinces' growth should have a payoff and the rule provinces action is utterly useless as it is (almost, when very close it starts making a bit of sense).
It might be my initial proposal above is fine, or maybe it needs to be like you suggested, a lot weaker. Mine is more expensive though, so maybe 1 GB pr 2 GB growth transfered cost and DDC. So transfering 6 GB growth costs 3 GB and increases DDC by 3?
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Post by X-Nemeth on Dec 29, 2015 18:19:01 GMT
I like Lindes suggestion. How much military do you need to occupy a region?
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Post by Linde (x-GM) on Dec 29, 2015 22:04:04 GMT
Here is an example of my idea:
The Lord protector of Tir Moreth want to rule his lvl 3 province Tir Mor. He decide to spend the maximum 3GB doing so.
His DDC is: 15(base) +3(province level) for a total of DDC 18 His DAC modifiers are +2(prosperity) +6(Full advantage from Manor & Guild) +1 (Stability) +4 (Profession(Administrate)) for a total DAC modifier of +13 So he can take ten on the action. This will add 3 GB of growth to his lvl 3 province Furthermore, since he spent 3 GB on the action he can decrease the growth in the province of Amaca by 6 (3x2) to add another 3 GB of growth to Tir Mor. Tir Mor increase their growth points by 6, while Amaca reduce their growth points with 6. Since Amaca have 36 growth points, they can afford to loose 6 without decreasing the province level from 2 to 1, therefore the prosperity in Amaca is reduced by 1.
So in my example you could say that he pay a GB cost of 50% of the transferred growth and take a hit to prosperity to transfer growth 1:1. It is capped by the level of the province, so no DDC increase would be needed to keep people from transferring too much. If we dropped exchange rate of your version to 3:2, then it would be less cost effective than my version (or just as cost effective as when you occupy enemy provinces to steal their growth) but a single action could potentially be more efficient as you could breach the province level barrier with enough bonuses racked up.
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Post by X-Tir Moreth(Alexander) on Dec 30, 2015 12:32:17 GMT
Hmm... Time to get a bit mathy. Assuming a lvl 3 province, say Tir Mor, using the above action would hasten growth by 2 turns, at the expense of 3 GB and 6 Growth (which in a mage's case is an advantage, not a cost, but for all others is a cost). Increasing a province from lvl 3 to 4 increases income by about 3.5 GB, once all holdings are filled out and assuming 40% taxation, as well as assuming Manor and Law control. Building the holdings will take at least a turn and cost 8 GB. In Tir Mor's case, it starts at growth 60 (initially 15, increased to 400%, or was it +400%?). It needs to get to 108 to grow. That's 16 turns of growth. So hastening growth by 2 turns, brings in ~7GB, under optimal circumstances... The cost is 3GB, a realm actions (let's price that at 2GB, which is close to meaningless but as good as it gets) and an agitate action (1 GB). So 6 GB + lost growth in Amaca (an advantage for me, hefty cost for others). So for me, that actions is kinda worthwhile (though cutting it a bit close) and for others it represents a net loss. The lost growth sets Amaca's growth back by 3 turns. That math changes somewhat if we're talking a lvl 4->5 province, but not by much. (income increase is 4.5, cost increase for the same benefit is by 1, so slightly more effective). I think we need to make it a bit more effective, but it is a lot better than the normal rule province action which is basically a trap for players to waste money at. Perhaps make it so that simply taking the rule province actions means you can increase the target province's growth by current lvlx2, by gold or transfer. So you can spend the minimum (1GB) to gain 6 growth, costing you 10 growth elsewhere. A hardcap based on province lvl is much better than an indirect cap through DDC as I suggested, much more predictable. Or maybe that you can transfer growth equal to twice the growth generated, so spending 3 GB lets you transfer 6 more, costing you 12 elsewhere. Or a better exchange rate... lots of options, needs a bit of nudge I think. Also, lets keep game length in mind a bit. Assuming anything more than ~20 turns is a bit optimistic I think, 3 years in the real world is a lot for a game. So at natural growth, increased province level in turn 16 would bring in about 7 GBs of income... no scratch that, as the gb to rule holdings would be earned back within 3-4 turns of the province growing, so around turn 20 there would actually be a net increase. Each use of the above action brings this 2 turns closer, so assuming one every 2nd turn, from turn 4 (as we all need time to grow into current available holdings) that hastens growth to around turn 10, having spent 3 actions, costing ~6 GB each. 4 turns to fill out new holdings and for them to pay themselves back, gives increased income of 3.5 in turn 14. That's 6 turns, or 21 GB of income. At the expense of ~18 GB. That's not very attractive, especially since 2GB = 1 regent action is very low and since ~20 turns is already a bit optimistic (let's make it past the usual 1d4-1 turns first, shall we). So yeah, still think it needs a bit of a nudge, maybe even a small push. Don't take this as a demand, btw, I am not saying there MUST be a cost-effective way to grow provinces (though I would like there to be one ), I am just saying that if there should be one, it should be a way that isn't a financial trap for players. There is also an element of realism vs game here, as the above is incredibly efficient in real-world terms. Founding a new village, building castle and so on is something that paid of in many decades in the real world. If we want realism, then things most certainly do not need to be more efficient.
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Post by Linde (x-GM) on Dec 30, 2015 22:15:39 GMT
Rule Province [Realm]
Use this action to increase the level of your provinces, increasing your income and domain power.
Type: Realm – Rule province requires the use of one court action and one regent action.
Cost: 1 or more GBs.
Difficulty: DDC 15 + Province (Current province level).
Modifiers: Advantage [Manor, Guild]; Prosperity; Stability.
Check: Add twice the number of GBs spent to province growth this turn. Additionally add up to twice the number of GBs spent to province growth, while subtracting growth from Influence: Yes – You can use influence.
Restrictions: You may take 10, but you may not take 20.
You cannot spend more GBs than the current province level (total for all domains wanting to contribute to growth).
Special: Provinces grow naturally over time; each turn a province grows a number of GBs equal to its effective province level.
As an additional effect of the rule province action you may add a number of growth points up to twice the number of GBs spent on the action, by subtracting the appropriate amount of growth from another province you control or occupy.
If you are the ruler of the province from where the growth is taken you add 1 point of growth for each 1 point of growth subtracted.
If you only occupy the province from where the growth is taken you add 1 point of growth for each 3 points of growth subtracted, and you can only add growth points equal to the amount of GB you have spent on the action or the number of units you have in the occupied province, whichever is lower.
Prosperity in the province that loose growth will decrease by 1, and by 1 more if the province level is reduced as a result of this action.
Furthermore, as you move your loyal subjects first, any holding levels lost due to decreased province level will come out of your holdings if possible. Note: To rule a province all the way from level 3 to level 4 could require 60GBs (or more, depending on terrain and climate). This is quite expensive; but combined with natural province growth a continuing commitment to Rule Province can have a real impact on how quickly your provinces gain levels.
Refer to Chapter 2: Domains for additional details on province growth.
Blue is suggested updates to the action. Straight up, the action is twice as effective now, as each GB spent give 2 growth points.
This would allow someone to effectively put 4 growth points per province level into growth each turn by moving 2 growth points per province level from another province.
So in the case of Tir Mor, it would allow Tir Moreth to rule their province to level 4, spending 12GB on 4 rule actions. In the case of Nemeth, it would allow them to rule their province to level 4, spending 6 GB on 2 rule actions. In the case of Camelot, it would allow them to rule their province to level 6, spending 25GB on 5 rule actions.
It could potentially generate very fast (unrealistically) growth if people focus on growing, but I don't mind that. What do you guys think?
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Post by Linde (x-GM) on Dec 30, 2015 22:31:53 GMT
I like Lindes suggestion. How much military do you need to occupy a region? 1 unit minimum. But Province level units if you want to institute full occupational control.
If the province contains forts/castles, those need to be taken first or they will keep you from asserting a full occupation.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Dec 30, 2015 23:39:10 GMT
So in effect there are 3 levels to growth: I can grow normally (1 times growth) grow with rule province, but without subtracting from other regions (3 times normal growth) grow with rule province with subtracting from other regions (5 times normal growth)
If you move too many people too fast, they become very unhappy. There should be a penalty for lawful/good empires for basically import huge amounts of slaves into the country. Also flooding the economy with cheap labor usually doesnt end well for region prosperity.
I dont mind either way, but I think 1/2/3 times growth (instead of 1/3/5) would also be fine.
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Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Dec 31, 2015 10:49:47 GMT
I am all for your updated action Linde. It gives an extra possibility to the game which I think is good. After all, if one focuses on growth one must neglect other things. But with this that focus pays back.
On account of the realism, we should keep in mind there was a period of largely peace for 30 years, as far as I know, one could call the growth the effect from that. Quite some people comming of age these next years, etc. (And they could have been to young to be drafted in the wars of 1-2 years back.)
Queen, Linde could arrange the story behind the random events for said LG realms to reflect this. Sounds like a simple way for him to take your remark into account. Just a suggestion.
Again, I am all for.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Dec 31, 2015 10:53:32 GMT
Queen, Linde could arrange the story behind the random events for said LG realms to reflect this. Sounds like a simple way for him to take your remark into account. Just a suggestion. Better to point it out than forever stay silent I would rather have a good suggestion twice than none at all.
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Post by Linde (x-GM) on Dec 31, 2015 14:43:16 GMT
And good ideas are always welcome ^_^
I have chosen to implement my new version of the Rule Province Action.
Happy New Year!!!!!
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