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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 2, 2016 21:50:54 GMT
I kinda sidetracked the War Rules discussion re: Magic, so figured I'd bring it up here.
Not using any examples of current in-game events, here's a couple of reasons why Magic is not as overpowered as it seems:
Almost any divination or illusion magic can effectively be accomplished through espionage, at varying levels of difficulty. In contrast to magic, espionage is a regent action, where preparing spells is a realm action. Espionage costs 0-1GB, where the magic will cost noticeably more in both GB and RP. Scrying? Espionage can do the same. Pretend your army is better? Espionage can do that too. And so on and so forth.
Summoning spells are powerful, but the realms who can summon are often incapable of effectively levying or mustering. It is my understanding that while GLF won against HTOG, they spent considerable resources doing so. As an important query though: Armies typically need a commander to be led effectively. Is that also the case for summons? It should be, if only to prohibit a sudden random summoning in a faraway province to wreak havoc with no commanding officer.
Most realm blessing spells have an equivalent, opposite realm curse spell. They also tend to be expensive in terms of GB/RP. Even with coordination, the usual bless province tends to barely break-even for all involved parties. In contrast, an agitate action costs 0-1GB, no RP, and can easily raise prosperity permanently by +1 at a cost of a regent vs a realm action. So again, there is a equivalent non-magic action that can accomplish the same.
Worried about the loyalty of your people? You can use magic, but once that magic wears off, you're screwed. In contrast, diplomacy, agitate and espionage are all 0-1GB actions that can ensure the loyalty of your people. Even Court (Grant) actions can help with loyalty in a tight spot.
The most powerful magic appears to be magic that affects armies and fleets, e.g. granting an extra hp per ship? That's a lot of potential ships saved. Similarly, +1 or +2 morale is huge. However, without additional information, it appears those spells are also very expensive.
Similarly, the most powerful realm blessing appears to be Gold Rush, but even that is quite a costly spell, given the realm sizes.
As far as adventures go, they are ultimately determined by appropriate skill proficiency + attribute. In this, high stats & expertise are king. Magic, unless it affects an attribute at the right time and place, shouldn't have any (DO) effect beyond roleplay.
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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 9, 2016 8:31:40 GMT
In addition:
Most morale spells are LoS and therefore require a mage following the army. This puts them at risk, even for temples, but moreso for source holders. Your army held the field, yay, but your regent or lieutenant wizard is dead, boo.
Temples need at least Temple(0) connections to their higher lvl temples Druids need the temple(0) or source(0) depending on the spell, and the temple connection. Wizards need a source(0) and a ley link (both regent/realm actions), and an appropriate source elswhere.
True for all is that if they ever become unable to prepare a spell, they can't just not cast it, but they actually lose the spell. And any holdings they cast from can only be used up to its level in spells per turn.
None of the above risks exist for any of the above (cheaper and easier) actions. Some spells do have range, but most of those are either limited in their effects or very high level.
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Post by Maelgwyn ap Cadwgan (TOG) on Jun 9, 2016 11:32:18 GMT
Aethor, from my expercience the requirement for a commander is still there. GLF his summons were led by himself together with his regular troops. My summons were brought to the muster area and then lead by Sir Estian, as commanding general. The Undead Legions were under the field command of Jorn Morrow. This is in fact one of the downsides of a Sorceror depending solely on summons, he still needs to lead them or find someone to do so.
Those spells are indeed expensive. The sole exception to the high cost ratio is in fact the Bless the Sacred Fleet you refer too. This spell gives a great advantage for a small cost However, this is the only spell that affects fleets besides possibly certain attack spells. Furthermore, it is also of very limited scope considering there are perhaps 4 navies in existence.
I'll copy this bit here from my last rambling of a post. This concerning the limited amount of people being able to perform Realm magic (or even True Magic) at all.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 9, 2016 12:14:21 GMT
Battle magic is exceedingly cheap for what it does. If you want to make your army twice as good, you need to spend a huge amount of resources, and an even larger running cost. Do it with magic? 12 rp for 4 units.
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Post by Godfred Thraw BayardsKing(GT) on Jun 9, 2016 12:46:38 GMT
I think that it is important that a soldier, been used to lead a troop and to wage war (warfare ) makes a difference and that he is more sure to return living that another character..
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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 9, 2016 13:00:17 GMT
Yeah, that 12RP cost seems low until your regent dies in battle because he had to follow the army around, and he's a wizard and not a fighter.
And the true cost should include the 3GB spent preparing, the spell slot that gets locked, and the additional locked spell slot if you want to be able to sustain it over two seasons. And the regent/realm action you spent on it, which means if your regent is a wizard or sorceror, you don't get to wage war.
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Post by X-Nemeth on Jun 9, 2016 13:20:30 GMT
You are not forced to prepare magic as a realm action. Only if you wish to prepare more than one spell. Also, several classes have wage war as their bonus regent action, meaning they can prepare spells and wage war at the same time.
Following the army around? You do not need to follow the army around to cast realm magic on it, only if you wish to do the subclass of battle magic. If he is assigned as a general, then he has to follow the army around.
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Post by Aethor of Helna (ST) on Jun 9, 2016 13:32:59 GMT
The range of "Army of Heroes" is close. That means you have to be within line of sight of the army. That makes the caster vulnerable, or it provides limited utility to the spell (which won't last 6 war moves except for the most skilled wizards).
A regent action is still a regent action. For one spell.
Your Lt could be a class that has wage war, but that doesn't solve the whole "close" range of most of the unit enhancing spells, and their limited (measured in weeks) duration. Either you're on the defensive, or you're going to have to join your army on a foray and risk death and dismemberment.
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Post by Caerleon (Tristan) on Jun 10, 2016 0:23:26 GMT
The rules on ley lines are ambiguous, probably because Bjorn never got around to editing chapter 8. My interpretation would be that you can forge a ley line to a province where you have no source holding, it has the following effect:
- it dissipates at the end of the domain turn. - it allows you to cast spells in the destination province as though it is part of your ley network.
On spell range, for Realm Magic close range in unambiguously LOS. I'd rule that this makes the casting mage a valid target for battle damage in battles that occur in the war move that the spell is cast.
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Post by Linde (x-GM) on Jun 11, 2016 12:47:39 GMT
The rules on ley lines are ambiguous, probably because Bjorn never got around to editing chapter 8. My interpretation would be that you can forge a ley line to a province where you have no source holding, it has the following effect:
- it dissipates at the end of the domain turn. - it allows you to cast spells in the destination province as though it is part of your ley network.
On spell range, for Realm Magic close range in unambiguously LOS. I'd rule that this makes the casting mage a valid target for battle damage in battles that occur in the war move that the spell is cast.
On ley lines: Tristan is correct in his interpretation. On spell range: The caster needs to be within range when casting the spell, and in the case of summons or control spells, he needs to stay in range to direct the units. So a sorcerer(cleric) doesn't need to follow buffed units around (or stay in blessed provinces) to keep the spell going. Effects of being caught in a battle would be as Tristan describe.
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